{"id":208,"date":"2025-11-29T10:04:14","date_gmt":"2025-11-29T17:04:14","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/?p=208"},"modified":"2025-11-30T17:23:26","modified_gmt":"2025-12-01T00:23:26","slug":"platos-two-greek-tragedies","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/?p=208","title":{"rendered":"Plato’s Two Greek Tragedies"},"content":{"rendered":"\n
By Robert Yanal<\/h5>\n\n\n\n

\n Plato, according to Diogenes Laertius, \u201cwas about to compete for the prize with a tragedy, when he listened to Socrates in front of the theatre of Dionysus, and then consigned his poems to the flames, with the words: Come hither, O fire-god, Plato now has need of thee.\u201d\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n Diogenes\u2019 story may be true or not. In either case, Plato was a dazzlingly good writer. \n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n

\n Plato had the dramatic gifts of a Sophocles or Euripides, but he decided to exploit them in a different literary form: the logos Sokratikos<\/em>, or \u2018conversation with Socrates\u2019. \u2013 Charles Kahn, Plato and the Socratic Dialogue<\/em>.\n<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Apology<\/h4>\n\n\n\n

\n In Plato\u2019s Apology<\/em>, Socrates is given two primary motives for his lifelong work of examining other people.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n
  1. The Oracle at Delphi has said that no one is wiser than Socrates, and Socrates takes this as a riddle and tries to refute the Oracle to discover what the god really meant.<\/li>\n\n\n\n
  2. Socrates tells his jury that he is a gadfly, arousing the citizenry of Athens from its sleep by examining them, thereby benefitting the city.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n

    \n Both cannot be Socrates\u2019 primary motives. Either Socrates aims at refuting the oracle, and by the way benefits the city; or he aims at benefitting the city, and by the way refutes the oracle.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n The oracle story itself is queer. A friend of Socrates, Chaerephon, takes it on himself to go to Delphi (180 km northwest of Athens) to ask the Oracle whether anyone is wiser than Socrates. \n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n My theory is that the Oracle story is Plato\u2019s literary invention, created to set Socrates up as a tragic hero. \n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

    \n Aristotle in his Poetics<\/em>, defines the tragedy in terms of its plot: a noble hero because he is flawed brings about his downfall. Aristotle singled out Oedipus for its recognition scene. Plato establishes a narrative for Socrates in the Apology<\/em> that matches the actions of Oedipus.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Sophocles, Oedipus<\/em><\/strong>\n<\/p><\/td>

    Plato, Apology<\/em><\/strong>\n<\/p><\/td><\/tr>


    The oracle delivers a prophecy to Oedipus\u2019s father Laius.
    <\/p><\/td>


    The oracle delivers a prophecy to Socrates.
    <\/p><\/td><\/tr>


    His son will grow up to kill his father and marry his mother.
    <\/p><\/td>


    No one is wiser than Socrates.
    <\/p><\/td><\/tr>


    Laius tries to finesse the prophecy by giving his baby son to a shepherd.
    <\/p><\/td>


    Socrates tries to finesse the prophecy by examining people thought to be wise.
    <\/p><\/td><\/tr>


    Oedipus kills his father and solves the riddle of the Sphinx.
    <\/p><\/td>


    Socrates solves the riddle of the Oracle.
    <\/p><\/td><\/tr>


    Despite being warned, Oedipus persists in his investigation, only to discover that he himself is the killer of Laius.
    <\/p><\/td>


    Socrates recognizes that his examinations have aroused much hostility but continues anyway.
    <\/p><\/td><\/tr>


    Oedipus exiles himself from Thebes.
    <\/p><\/td>


    Socrates invites the death penalty.
    <\/p><\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

    \n The pattern of attempting to avoid the prophetic event and failing is repeated in myth. It was prophesied that Achilles would die young. Thetis, his mother, dipped him in the River Styx to make him invulnerable, but held him by his heel. Apollo directs the Trojan prince Paris to shoot Achilles in the heel. Perseus was prophesied to kill his grandfather, King Acrisius of Argos. To prevent this, Acrisius cast mother and child out to sea in a chest. Perseus, not drowned, grew up to become a hero, slaying Medusa and rescuing Andromeda. At a sporting event, Perseus accidentally killed his grandfather with a stray discus throw. And of course there is the famous Appointment at Samarra tale.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n Both Oedipus and Socrates are hubristic. Oedipus rashly declares that the killer of Laius will be banished from the city. He undertakes to find that killer. After all, he had solved the riddle of the Sphynx. Socrates tries to disprove the oracle, and in the process manages to anger a lot of people, a fact he states several times in the Apology<\/em>.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n

    \n Much hostility as arisen against me of a sort that is harshest and most onerous. This has resulted in many slanders, including the reputation that I mentioned of being \u2018wise\u2019. [Apology<\/em>, 22e]\n<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

    \n Socrates knew he was playing with fire. Like Oedipus, who is warned several times to drop his investigation, Socrates continues his examinations, knowing that they arouse hostility. In Plato\u2019s Meno<\/em>, written after Socrates\u2019 trial, Anytus, one of Socrates\u2019 accusers, shows up. His brief appearance seems to have no other function in the dialogue, except to say this:\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n

    Anytus<\/strong>: It seems to me, Socrates that you readily speak ill of people. I would advise you \u2013 if you are willing to trust me \u2013 to be careful. Perhaps, in other cities too, it is easier to do evil to people than good. It certainly is in this one. But then, I think you know that as well as I. [94d] <\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

    \n Socrates persists in his examinations after Anytus\u2019 \u201cprophecy\u201d. Oedipus, too, persists in his investigation, despite a warning by the blind prophet Tiresias.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n

    Teiresias<\/strong>
    I order you to abide by your own decree, and from this day forth not to speak to these men or to me, since you are the accursed defiler of this land.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Oedipus<\/strong>
    So brazen with your blustering taunt? Where do you think to escape to?<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

    <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Euthyphro<\/h3>\n\n\n\n

    \n Euthyphro, a mantis or soothsayer, is prosecuting his father for murder. A day laborer on their farm in Naxos has, drunkenly, killed a servant. The father had the killer tied up and thrown in a ditch, awaiting further instructions from the religious authorities in Athens. The man dies from exposure.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n Euthyphro is acting as he does because he firmly believes that his father did something impious: an offense to the gods. Socrates asks, What is piety?, and the main portion of the dialogue explores several answers, to no avail. The dialogue ends in aporia (impasse, confusion). \n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n What Euthyphro fails to realize is that he is in a moral dilemma.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

      \n
    1. He has a filial duty to his father (so he should not prosecute him)<\/li>\n\n\n\n
    2. He has a duty to other people to remove the pollution a murderer brings.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n

      \n Euthyphro, despite the concern of his relatives, only sees the second. At the end of the dialogue, he quickly takes his leave and proceeds with the prosecution of his father.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

      \n Hegel thought that tragedy consisted in just this sort of situation.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

      \n

      The original essence of tragedy consists then in the fact that within such a conflict each of the opposed sides, if taken by itself, has justification<\/em>, while on the other hand each can establish the true and positive content of its own aim and character only by negating and damaging the equally justified power of the other. Consequently, in its moral life, and because of it, each is just as much involved in guilt<\/em>. (Lectures on Aesthetics<\/em>)<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

      \n Two moral duties, each taken by itself, is justified. Sometimes, though, they are in conflict. Acting on one \u201cdamages\u201d the other. This moral cross-trangression yields guilt. In Hegelian tragedy, there is no noble hero.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

      \"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

      \n Hegel\u2019s example is Sophocles\u2019 tragedy, Antigone<\/em>. After Oedipus has relinquished the kingship of Thebes, his two sons, Etiocles and Polynices, become kings in annual rotation. Etiocles is the first to be King of Thebes but refuses to give up the throne. Polynices rebels. He and six foreign princes (\u201cSeven Against Thebes\u201d) march on Thebes. They lose. The brothers fight and kill each other.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

      \n Creon, the brother-in-law of Oedipus, assumes the kingship. He orders an honorable burial for Etiocles. But he also orders that Polynices be left to rot. Antigone, the sister of Polynices, demands that Polynices receive a decent burial. Forbidden by Creon to do so, Antigone nonetheless buries Polynices (twice). She is arrested and hangs herself.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

        \n
      1. Creon, a leader of the state, has a duty to protect the state from rebellion.<\/li>\n\n\n\n
      2. Antigone, as a sister, has a family duty to provide her brother with a decent burial.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n

        \n Both cannot be realized. One position must prevail. Tragedy results.\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n

        The tone of Plato\u2019s Euthphyro<\/em> is ironic and jesting, certainly not the solemn atmosphere required for tragedy. And yet something like the story of Antigone is there between the lines. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

        Antigone<\/em><\/strong>
        <\/p><\/td>

        Euthyphro<\/em><\/strong>
        <\/p><\/td><\/tr>


        Moral conflict: state versus family
        <\/p><\/td>


        Moral conflict: state versus family
        <\/p><\/td><\/tr>


        Creon: denies proper burial to Polynices.
        <\/p><\/td>


        Euthyphro: denies his duty to his father.
        <\/p><\/td><\/tr>


        Antigone: Secretly buries her brother.
        <\/p><\/td>


        Euthyphro: Brazenly pursues the prosecution of this father.
        <\/p><\/td><\/tr>


        Creon arrests Antigone, who hangs herself
        <\/p><\/td>


        Euthyphro goes on his merry way.
        <\/p><\/td><\/tr>


        Guilt
        <\/p><\/td>


        Ignorance
        <\/p><\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

        <\/p>\n\n\n\n

        Plato\u2019s Euthyphro<\/em> is not high tragedy. Neither Euthyphro nor Socrates seems to care very much about Euthyphro\u2019s father (nor about the day laborer who dies of exposure). The dialogue is filled with Socrates\u2019 witty and ironic comments directed at Euthyphro (who doesn\u2019t get the jokes). The off-stage relatives play the Antigone role. If there is a Socratic tragic element it is Euthyphro\u2019s incorrigible ignorance which, as Socrates has found, is commonplace in Athens. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

        By Robert Yanal Plato, according to Diogenes Laertius, \u201cwas about to compete for the prize with a tragedy, when he listened to Socrates in front of the theatre of Dionysus, and then consigned his poems to the flames, with the words: Come hither, O fire-god, Plato now has need of thee.\u201d Diogenes\u2019 story may be […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":199,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_feature_clip_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[25,8],"tags":[51,46,37,52,47,49,50,45,44],"class_list":["post-208","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-art","category-philosophy","tag-antigone","tag-apology","tag-aristotle","tag-euthyphro","tag-greek-tragedy","tag-hegel","tag-oedipus-rex","tag-plato","tag-socrates"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/11\/Oedipus-Sphinx-interior-kylix-Attic-Vatican-Museums-c-470-bce.jpg.webp","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/208","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=208"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/208\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":220,"href":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/208\/revisions\/220"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/199"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=208"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=208"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/bobyanal.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=208"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}